No one has seen nor heard the Most High, the Father of the New Testament

Fred R. Coulter—January 27, 2018

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Greetings, brethren! Welcome to Sabbath services.

[Trancript begins at 56 seconds of audio]

I got in the mail all I need to know about God the Father and Jesus Christ, and what is going on in one of the Churches of God. I got this from a man in New Mexico. He sent me the whole thing, all bound and ready to go. He says:

Dear Fred, I know you are aware of the situation that has been building in Pacific Church of God, wherein the ministers are claiming God the Father is the God of the Old Testament. In addition, they have produced study papers that show the wider extent that they are planning to take with this. I thought you would find them useful. For instance, one of the papers says that Jesus Christ is a divine being and is just the servant of God.

Rick Railston also told a friend of mine who questioned Rick's claims that accepting this new truth is a matter of salvation.

That if you don't accept it, you won't be saved!.

Obviously, the whole topic is ridiculous and heretical lie about the nature of God. Moreover, several people in other groups are quite upset about the whole matter, so I'd appreciate your perspective on the papers. I have spoken with brethren and sent some of your papers to them, but there's still confusion because they do not have an in-depth background in the nature of God. Feel free to use these papers in whatever way you choose.

So, thank you very much for sending it. PCG is Pacific Church of God.

Then someone else sent me something that's very interesting. This is commercial time:

  • Sermon Series and Study Pack—Satan's Ten Most Believable Lies (based on a book by David Breese; #9 is Satan's Way is the Best Way.)
  • The Nature of God with the CDs that go with it
  • Assaults Against the Church

Just remember this: Whenever you think everything's going nice and smooth, something is going to happen.

I look back at the sermons that we started right after the Feast, and was one of the first ones about to watch out for Messianic Jews! We will see part of this does relate to some Messianic Jewish thought.

Someone else sent me something, so I get some good things once in a while; I thought I'd share it with you.

Flyer ending Jan 27th.
Grocery—Page 2
The 4 for $10 price is incorrect.
The correct price is 2 for $5

Then someone else sent me this one:

The problem isn't that we don't have access to the Truth, it's that most people don't want to hear it.

That's true, most people don't want to hear it! That's where we are today. This is why we have the things that we have.

  • Does Satan ever give up? No!
  • Why do we have so many things come along that challenge what we believe?

They kind of come in cycles. It's always concerning, the first two things we've covered before: the nature of God and the Passover.

I got another one from someone who says that the Jews keep their 15th Passover because they go by the Deuteronomy Code, which supersedes Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, but not Deuteronomy, it succeeds it.

Deut. 16 gives the appearance of a 15th Passover. They have forgotten about the animals necessary for the redemption of the firstborn, so the Jews will keep their 15th Passover, which means they don't keep the Passover properly, so they're not in covenant with God with the New Covenant, though they may preach a form of Jesus.

You stop and think about—and I've almost given up watching TBN, that is a mess. It is so bad that they have hired Mike Huckabee. He's got a whole hour at the eastern time of 8 o'clock slot where he talks politics. That's to bring more people to the channel.

Why not just preach the Truth? Because people don't want it! It's inconvenient.

We have an astonishing writing by the Apostle Paul in 1-Cor. 11 concerning the Passover. This answers the question: why are there heresies?

1-Corinthians 11:17: "Now in this… [that he's going to discuss now] …that I am commanding you, I do not praise you, because when you assemble together, it is not for the better but for the worse."

Have you ever had a terrible, bad Sabbath? You go to Church, and the week before it wasn't too good, so you're all mad and upset. You pray about it. After a week of prayer, you get yourself in a reasonable attitude to go to Sabbath services. What happens, you get there and you hear things contrary to the Word of God again!

Verse 18: "For first of all, I hear that there are divisions among you when you are assembled together in the Church, and I partly believe it."

He also told all the elders of Ephesus, 'You better take heed to yourself, because there are going to come in those who are going to bring damnable heresies and even among yourselves there will be those who will rise up.'

Verse 19: "For it is necessary that heresies be among you…"

How are you going to be tested whether you know and prove the Truth or not? By what you say and by what other people try and say that the Bible says, but doesn't say!

What was their problem with the Passover? Their problem was having a meal! Paul told them twice, 'If you're hungry, eat at home.' Today there are still people who think that on the New Testament Passover you have to have a meal.

"…so that the ones who are approved… [approved of God because they preach the Truth] …may become manifest among you. Therefore, when you assemble together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper" (vs 19-20). The Greek there is 'ouk,' which means there's no reality of you eating the Lord's supper.

  • He ate His
  • for the New Covenant, you don't have a meal

It's not a time of rejoicing. It's a time of commemorating His death. That's why!

We have been covering: is the God of the Old Testament really the Father or not? How do we study the Bible so we know? That's why we have the Fourteen Rules for Bible Study as the first appendix in the Faithful Version Bible. Begin with what you know! When you study, prove all things! If you're new, or even well grounded in the Bible, for difficult topics, what do you start with first? The simple Scriptures to understand!

How do you know we should keep the seventh day? The simple Scripture says, 'Remember the seventh day to keep it Holy.' That's the first one everyone wants to forget!

John 6:46: "No one has seen the Father except He Who is from God…"—Jesus Christ. He said, 'I have come down from heaven. I did not come down to do My will, but the will of the Father.'

"…He has seen the Father" (v 46). That's very clear! It is true the angels have seen the Father, but this is talking about human beings. "No one has seen the Father except He Who is from God; He has seen the Father."

John 5:36: "But I have a greater witness than John's… [John the Baptist] …for the works that the Father gave Me to complete, the very works that I am doing, themselves bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, Who sent Me, has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice nor seen His form at any time" (vs 36-37).

  • How can God the Father witness of Jesus, but no one has seen Him?
  • No one has heard His voice?
  • How is that possible?

Here's the first clue:

Verse 38: "And you… [the religious leaders] … do not have His Word dwelling in you, for you do not believe Him Whom He has sent."

Let's see something very important concerning God the Father and Jesus Christ, v 30: "I have no power to do anything of Myself… [from His own human existence] …but as I hear…" The Father teaches (Isa. 50), 'He wakens Me morning by morning.' Of course, God the Father was probably speaking to Jesus regularly.

"…but as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father Who sent Me" (v 30). Do you suppose that that applies through all eternity? But of course, it would have to!

What is the first thing He taught us to pray? 'Our Father Who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come!' That means the Father's rule and eventually the Kingdom on the earth, headed up by Christ and the saints. 'Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.' Isn't that the first thing we pray? What does that mean for us? That we do the will of God as Jesus did the will of God!

Verse 38: "And you do not have His Word dwelling in you, for you do not believe Him Whom He has sent. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think that you have eternal life…" (vs 38-39).
They do talk about eternal life in the Prophets, but not like the New Testament. At this point, a lot of the Jews were believing their traditions and their Kabbalist theories of the soul going to heaven.

"…and they are the ones that testify of Me" (v 39).

Remember v 37: "And the Father Himself, Who sent Me, has borne witness of Me.…" How can He bear witness if 'you have neither heard His voice nor seen His form at any time'? Through the Word of God! We'll see two examples.

Verse 40: "But you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I have known you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves" (vs 40-42).

Isn't that a key thing? Isn't that the first commandment to love God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, with all your being? Yes, indeed! If you do, you'll do like the hymn that we sing, meditation on the Law of God all the time.

Verse 43: "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; but if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How are you able to believe, you who receive glory from one another, and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you, even Moses, in whom you have hope. But if you believed Moses, you would have believed Me; for he wrote about Me. And if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?" (vs 43-47).

Key to understanding the New Testament! You need both the Old and the New Testament.

Let's look at how the Father testified of Jesus Christ in Deut. 18. How did God do it when no one has heard His voice, nor seen His form? Through His servants! Was Moses the servant of God? Yes! We will see that Moses saw God! So, if Moses saw God, how can that be the Father when it says no one has seen Him except the One Who came down from heaven? Did Moses come down from heaven?

Deuteronomy 18:15: "The LORD your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, One like me. To Him you shall hearken."

What was said by God when He made Adam and Eve? Because the next thought is: Jesus really wasn't known until He came. So, if that were the case, what would have to have happened in Genesis 1:26? God would have said, 'Let Me make man in My image.' He didn't say that! He said, "…'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness…''

We covered about the Most High. So, I'll say this, like Jesus would say. 'Search the Scriptures and find any place where it says that the Most High said…' There are quite a few places where it talks about the Most High. We've examined some of those. We'll examine some more today.

We know this is a prophecy of Christ. What about the word God? What is the Hebrew for God? Elohim! That's plural. The Most High is over everything! Everything that was done in the Old Testament through the One Who became Jesus Christ, was also according to the will of the Most High. Jesus said He did nothing that was not the will of God.

Do you think He did anything before that statement in the book of John that was not the will of God? What was the sin of Satan the devil? He rebelled, executed his own will, and said, 'I will be like the Most High'! Not just rebellion against the One Who was the Lord God of the Old Testament, but the great Sovereign of the whole universe.

Deuteronomy 18:15: "…To Him you shall hearken, according to all that you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, so that I do not die' And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well what they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet…'" (vs 15-18).

Did Jesus raise up Himself? No! This is a message from the Most High through the One Who became Jesus Christ to Moses, to be a witness that God was going to do it.

Therefore, God the Father Himself gave this witness, but He did not speak it Himself. He had Moses speak it. First it came to the One Who was Lord God, Who gave it to Moses. Could Jesus give a prophecy from the Most High about Himself? Yes!

Verse 18: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, One like you, and will put My words in His mouth. And He shall speak to them all that I shall command Him."

What did Jesus say? 'As I see the Father, whatever the Father does, that's what I do.'

John 12 becomes very important. Knowing that this would have to be also concerning the things that are in what we call the Old Testament. This is the Prophet that was prophesied back in Deut. 18.

John 12:37: "Although He had done so many miracles in their presence, they did not believe in Him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled who said, 'Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?' For this very reason they could not believe because again Isaiah said, 'He has blinded their eyes…'" (vs 37-40).

  • How does God blind the eyes? 'In seeing they shall see, but not perceive!'
  • How does He do it? Very simple: If you do not obey, there's automatic blinding!
  • If you don't obey, whose will are you doing? Your own or someone else's! That brings an automatic blinding!

It's like this cartoon we have here. Everybody's lined up to the reassuring lie. 'Oh, don't worry about that. Look, everybody keeps Sunday.'

Sidebar: Why do the wicked prosper? Because they are following Satan! What did he tell Jesus? 'If You worship me, I'll give you all the nations, the wealth, the glory, and everything of them!' Since there are false christs, and the ones behind the false christs are Satan the devil and the demons. They control the society!

Think about this: When they pray to the false Jesus, because they don't obey and they are blinded, who can answer their prayers? The false christ: Satan! Be very happy to. To what? To keep you deceived, to let you think it's really coming from God, but it's coming from Satan!

Verse 40: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I would heal them."

In other words, this is the whole basis for the second resurrection. If God blinds them because they won't obey, who is responsible for the blinding? God! How is He going to take care of that when He says He wants all to be saved, if they live their lives and die and there's not the second resurrection? Can't happen! So, when you read Ezek. 37 with the second resurrection, God asks Ezekiel, 'Who are these, Lord?' The Lord says, 'This is the whole house of Israel.' He's going to remove the blinding at that point!

Verse 41: "Isaiah said these things when he saw His glory… [in vision] …and spoke concerning Him. But even so, many among the rulers believed in Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, so that they wouldnot be put out of the synagogue" (vs 41-42).

  • Does that apply to a lot of people today? I couldn't keep the Sabbath, I'd lose my job!
  • Can you get another job? Yes!
  • Do you want eternal life, or just physical life?

Verse 43: "For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God. Then Jesus called out and said, 'The one who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him Who sent Me'" (vs 43-44).

Who is the One Who sent Me? The Father! The Father was only revealed as the Most High God in the Old Testament. When the prophecies that would come from the Most High God came, they were through the prophets. We'll see that in just a minute. Even the prophecies concerning Christ.

Verse 45: "And the one who sees Me sees Him Who sent Me…. [that's an amazing statement] … I have come as a light into the world so that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness. But if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects Me and does not receive My words has one who judges him; the Word, which I have spoken, that shall judge him in the last day…. [Why? Let's apply this to the whole Bible] … For I have not spoken from Myself; but the Father, Who sent Me, gave Me commandment Himself, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is eternal life. Therefore, whatever I speak, I speak exactly as the Father has told Me.'" (vs 45-50).

Same way with the will of God, didn't do His will. We approach the Old Testament in the same way. Let's talk again about Deut. 18. Let's see how the Most High, the One Who became the Father, gave this prophecy, but He Himself did not speak. However, since it came from Him, through Moses, did God the Father bear witness Himself? Not personally, but He did bear witness!

It's the same thing in court. You go to court, you have a witness who can't come, but he gives a written deposition. Is that a witness? Yes!

Deuteronomy 18:18: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren…" The Ihere has to be the part of Elohim Who was the Most High, but He had Moses bring the message. Do you understand that? Moses gave the message, because the One Who became Jesus gave him the words.

If Jesus speaks about Himself, before He comes in the flesh and those actually the words which came from the Most High, therefore, then, the Father has borne witness through this means without having to speak personally for anyone to hear His voice. We'll see another example here in just a minute.

"…and will put My words in His mouth. And He shall speak to them all that I shall command Him" (v 18). Does that not agree with John 12? I do nothing of My own self!'

Verse 19: "And it shall come to pass, whatever man will not hearken to My words, which He shall speak in My name, I will require it of him."

Then it talks about the prophet, so all of those who are prophets and teachers, you better be very careful. Remember, Satan does not ever come along and say, 'I want you to do this most evil thing.' He comes along and says, 'Did you know that there's a benefit that God hasn't told you about?' He presents it as good.

Isaiah 41:8: "But you, Israel, are My servant… [He calls the One Who became Jesus His servant (Isa. 42)] …Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, My friend; whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called you from its uttermost parts. And I said to you, 'You are My servant; I have chosen you, and have not cast you away'" (vs 8-9).

Though He sends them off into captivity, He hasn't gotten rid of them. Then He says three times in the next couple of verses, 'I will help you.'

He talks about the prophets, v 22: "Let them bring them out… [all their strong reasons] … and declare to us the things that shall happen; let them reveal the former things, what they are, that we may consider them and know the final end of them; or declare to us things to come.'"

He's saying Israel in their self-righteousness didn't listen to God, so He's saying, 'You tell Me what has been and what will be, if you're so smart you reject Me, then tell Me why you are so smart. What have you done?'

Verse 23: "Reveal the things that are to come after this, so that we may know that you are gods.…" Isn't that true today? Look at what they're trying to do with human beings.

"…Yea, do good, or do evil, so that we may be dismayed and see together. Behold, you are of nothing, and your work is of nothing. He who chooses you is an abomination (vs 23-24).

Then God says, v 25: "I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come from the rising of the sun; he will call upon My name…"—the one who would become Cyrus.

Verse 26: "Who has declared from the beginning, that we may know?.… [God] …And beforetime…" Do we have things beforetime as human time is? We have a few things in the Bible that tells us, rebellion of Satan, creation of the world, the heavens.
"…that we may say, 'He is right'? Yea, no one declares; yea, no one proclaims; yea, no one hears your words. I first said to Zion, 'Behold! Behold them!' And I gave to Jerusalem one who bears good news, For I looked, and there was no man; and there was no counselor among them, that I might ask and be given an answer. Behold, they are all false; their works are nothing; their images are wind and vanity" (vs 26-29).

This leads up to Isa. 42; here's how the Most High explains about the coming of Jesus without speaking it Himself!

(go to the next track)

Here's a prophecy about Jesus, Isaiah 42:1: "Behold My Servant…" He's talking about Himself. As the Lord God of the Old Testament, could He talk about His future coming in the third person? Yes!

Verse 1: "'Behold My Servant, Whom I uphold; My Elect, in Whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He shall bring forth justice to the Gentiles. He shall not cry out, nor lift up, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed He shall not break, and a smoking wick He shall not quench; in Truth He shall bring forth justice. He shall not fail nor be discouraged until He has set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for His Law.' Thus says the LORD God, 'He who created the heavens and stretched them out, spreading forth the earth and its offspring; He who gives breath to the people upon it and spirit to those who walk in it. I the LORD have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand … [His servant] …and will keep You, and give You for a covenant of the people, for a Light to the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison…'" (vs 1-7).

What did He say in Luke 4 when He went to the synagogue? There you have it!

"'…those who sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD; that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images'" (vs 7-8).

You can go on and read it. If you say that the God of the Old Testament was the Father, then you could say the Father had to give this to Isaiah. But nowhere does it say that in the New Testament or the Old Testament. This is the witness of the Father Himself in advance of sending Jesus. The Father Himself gave this Scripture so that when Jesus came it would be understood that it came from the Father, though it was given through the Lord God in the third person to Isaiah as a prophecy.

Let's talk a little bit about the servant here. When they first began preaching about Jesus Christ, how much of the New Testament was written? None!

Study Paper by Pacific Church of God:

The Bible is clear that Christ is also a God-being and worthy of worship. So by stating that the Father is the only God, Christ is not denying that He is a God-being.

What do you do with that? You separate them and do not include in the word God the plurality of it—Elohim. So, you see how very cleverly that they do it.

Clearly Christ's point in making this statement was expressing the Father's superiority to Him. It is also interesting to note that we never see statements in Scripture of the Father referring to Christ as His God.

Can't figure that out!.

Rather we find that Christ is always described as subordinate to the Father. For example, Christ is described as the Servant of the Father. Acts 3:13: "The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Servant Jesus, Whom you delivered up, and denied in the presence of Pilate," when he was determined to let Him go.

What are they referring to? Isa. 42, preaching Christ out of the Old Testament.

Acts 3:26[transcriber's correction] "To you first, God having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you in turning everyone from your iniquities."

We also find that the Father is Christ's head. The head of Christ is God. The Son Himself is subject to Him, Who puts all things under Him.

Then it talks about the throne. We'll get to that a little later. Let's talk about seeing God.

In the book of Exodus He gives the Ten Commandments and everybody heard His voice. All the people lived, and they said, 'Who has heard the voice of God and lives?' We find after the Ten Commandments:

Exodus 20:18: "And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking. And when the people saw, they trembled and stood afar off. And they said to Moses, 'You speak with us, and we will hear. But let not God speak with us, lest we die.' And Moses said to the people, 'Do not fear, for God has come to prove you and so that His fear may be before your faces, so that you may not sin.' And the people stood afar off…" (vs 18-21).

Moses went back up. Exo. 21, 22, 23 Moses got the judgments. When we come to Exo. 24, here is where they confirmed the covenant. 'No one has seen the form of the Father at any time." Isn't that what Jesus said? Or heard Him!

Exodus 24:1: "And He… [God] …said to Moses, 'Come up to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and worship afar off. And Moses alone shall come near the LORD, but they shall not come near. Neither shall the people go up with him.' And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, 'All the words, which the LORD has said, we will do'" (vs 1-3).

Then rose up early in the morning, took the Book of the Covenant, had the sacrifices, took the blood, sprinkled half of it on the people and half on the Covenant.

Verse 8: "And Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, 'Behold the blood of the covenant…' [v 9]: And Moses went up, and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel…" (vs 8-10) Jehovah Elohim! They saw Him; they saw His form!

"…And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the heavens in clearness…. [a sea of glass; so they saw Him] …And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay his hands. Also they saw God, and ate and drank" (vs 10-11).

How could God the Father be the One Who gave the Ten Commandments, if after they received the Ten Commandments and the Book of the Law they all went up partway on the mountain and had a confirmation meal to confirm the covenant that was already sanctified with the blood. They saw God; that could not be the Father!

Verse 12: "And the LORD said to Moses, 'Come up to Me in the mountain, and be there. And I will give you tablets of stone, and the law, and commandments which I have written, so that you may teach them.' And Moses rose up, and his attendance Joshua…" (vs 12-13).

You add them up and there are 75 people who saw the Lord. The 70 of the elders of Israel, plus Nadab, Abihu, Aaron, then Moses and Joshua; that's 75.

(continuing with the booklet):

They saw the God of Israel. It is often assumed that the God that made the covenant with Israel at Mount Sinai must be the one Who became Jesus Christ, because Exo. 24 mentions a group of people seeing Him.

How's that for accuracy?

And therefore, it would not be possible for this to be God the Father. This idea is based upon the following Scripture: They went up…

the ones we just read

…they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Notice Moses is included in this group. We have seen that unlike the rest of Israel, Moses actually saw some form when he interacted with God (Num. 12:8); whereas, God made it a specific point of not letting the rest of Israel see any form or likeness of Him….

If Moses had seen God in detail here in Exo. 24, he wouldn't be making this request in Exo. 33 that he might see God's glory.

  • How did God appear to Moses?
  • How did He appear to Adam and Eve?
  • To Abraham?
  • As flesh and bone!
  • What happened? Even Sarah saw Him!

Remember the Lord and two angels came and said, 'Okay, Sarah, next year you're going to have a baby.' Sarah said, 'Ha, ha! But I didn't laugh,'. And God said, 'Yes, you did laugh.' Any woman would laugh at age 89!

What did they do? They sat down under a tree, Abraham went out and had one of his servants kill a calf, slaughter it, probably cut off the best part! They roasted it, Sarah brought some bread and they had some milk. The Jewish tradition is that you have to have separate dishes for dairy goods and meat is 'baloney.' They ate! Then the three got up and the One Who was the Lord said, 'Now, shall we hold back from Abraham what we're going to do? No, we'll tell him.' Abraham bargained with God. Obviously, God had to be in flesh and bone.

Can a spirit being be flesh and bone, but not flesh and blood? Yes, Jesus was! Didn't He say, 'I'm flesh and bone,' but then He disappeared. How much control does He have over His body to do whatever He wants? Sometimes we wish we could do that and just disappear!

If Moses had seen God in detail here in Exo. 24 He wouldn't be making the request in Exo. 33, so logically we can conclude that this group didn't see God in detail either.

Missing the whole point! The comment was made: remember what we read earlier—'or seen His form.' Did they see a form of God? Yes!

They simply saw some kind of form or likeness of God and the statement they saw God is significant because this group was the only people in Israel to see this. Everyone else just heard the voice coming out of the midst of the fire…

…Concerning all the information presented here, we can see of the many conclusions that are drawn in regards to the issue of hearing and seeing God, are incorrect or incomplete.

As a result, we have to be careful with using this issue to make dogmatic conclusions regarding which God Being is being addressed at any particular place in Old Testament Scripture.

How many times was the voice heard, 'This is My Beloved Son, listen to Him?' Twice!

  • once when He was baptized
  • once at the Mount of Transfiguration

What they have done here to make it look like that this is a big, big deal, they quote all the Scriptures which brings this out, to make it look like it was said more often.

When He was baptized, the Spirit of God descending upon Him as a dove and suddenly a voice…

They have right up here:

The first instance where the Bible records God the Father testifying that Christ is His Son was at Christ's baptism.

Not so! You read the account of His begettal and His birth and His presentation and there were prophecies by Simeon, Anna, and also John the Baptist's father.

First instance: And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying, 'This is My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased.'

If this were the Father and the first time, what would you expect to be written? 'And the Father spoke from heaven saying Himself…' No! This is a message conveyed probably by an angel. A voice, because if it were God Himself that would be big time. After this point is when He said, 'No one has seen His form or heard His voice.' That was after this occurrence.

Why didn't Jesus say, 'Now you remember when I was baptized, all of you who were standing there, remember the Holy Spirit came down on Me in the form of the dove and you heard the voice of God the Father.' That's what He would have said IF it were true! Then they quote Mark 9 same thing.

Luke 3:22[transcriber's correction]: "…and there came a voice from heaven, saying..." Then they quote Matt. 17 '…a voice came out of the clouds saying…'; Mark 9 repeating it. What they have done, they have shown seven instances when this was done, because you have 2-Pet. 1:16, 18.

Here's the logic. If this voice were from God the Father, it wouldn't have been just a voice. It would have been mammoth, greater than what they heard at Mount Sinai. Let's read their conclusion here:

God the Father is the only individual in existence Who could make the claim that Christ is His Son…


…There is no one else who can say this.

True, but someone could convey the message of that, an angel, maybe Gabriel. You find almost everything having to do with the Messiah in Daniel and in the Gospels; it was the angel Gabriel.

In addition, there's nothing stated here in any of these Scriptures to indicate an angel is speaking on the Father's behalf.

Yes, there is, a voice, not the Father declares!

Not only this, there is never stated or even implied in any of these Scriptures, but the statement, 'This is My Beloved Son,' is stated in the first person, which gives us no indication that there was an intermediary speaking on the Father's behalf.

You don't have to have an angel say, 'I'm here to tell you what God said,' because what it was, the angel was to speak, 'This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased.' Because God the Father would not speak it Himself directly.

It's kind of like the Most High and Christ are one. The Most High was revealed in the Old Testament. You come to the New Testament and He's revealed as the Father, not a father, as we'll cover in another sermon.

Given Christ's clear statement in John 5:37 that the Father Himself, i.e. personally, has testified of Me and the fact that the Bible gives us examples of this in at least seven separate Scriptures…

They count the 2 occasions as 7!

It is clear that Jesus' use of the word you in John 5:37 should be understood as a reference to the specific audience He was making the statement to, rather than to all mankind.

Let's go back and just read into the record John 6:46 here. "No one has seen the Father except He Who is from God; He has seen the Father."

Then after the instance of the declaration of the voice. Was He not baptized at the beginning of His ministry? Yes, He was!

John 5:37: "And the Father Himself, Who sent Me, has borne witness of Me…." Can you bear witness without having to have your voice heard by everyone? Yes, you can write it. You can have someone else deliver it. 'I testify,' The Father never said, 'I testify.'

"…You have neither heard His voice nor seen His form at any time" (v 37).

  • Do you suppose that those to whom Jesus was talking to never went to the baptism of John?
  • Do you suppose there may have been at least one or two to whom He was speaking right at that time that could have been there when Jesus was baptized? Yes!
  • Did all the people hear the voice, 'This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased,'? Yes!
  • Would other people have heard it? Yes!

Therefore, it cannot be the voice of God, because Jesus said, 'You have neither heard His voice nor seen His form at any time.' How far back does that go? Any time! So, He's not just talking to those people there.

It is clear that the use of Jesus' word you in John 5:37 should be understood as a reference to the specific audience He was speaking to when He made this statement and is not an all inclusive statement meant to apply to all mankind.

What does it say here? At any time! That includes all time.

Seeing God:
The issue of seeing God the Father is much more a complex subject. First of all there are several Scriptures in the Bible that obviously make dogmatic and all-inclusive statements regarding God the Father not being seen by any human.

How do they get around that? You have a clue that they're going to have to weasel around this some way because they say it's more complex.

John 1:18: "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son Who is the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
John 6:46…

We already read that!

… "Not that anyone has seen the Father except He Who is come from God; He has seen the Father"
1-John 4:12: "No one has seen God at any time…"

That's written years and years later, let's see how they explain it!

These verses are obviously making dogmatic, all-inclusive statements that no human has ever seen God the Father.

Are you going to be reasoning in circles here?

In light of the above Scriptures, how are we to understand the numerous Old Testament Scriptures that speak about God appearing to humans, or having face-to-face interaction with humans?

flesh and bone!

Do these references to God appearing to humans or speaking to them face-to-face automatically mean that these Scriptures could not possibly be speaking about God the Father, and that they must be referring to the One Who became Jesus Christ? To answer this question, we need to take a closer look at both of these issues.

So then they give the one here:

Deut. 5:1-4: "The Lord talked with you face to face in the mountain…"

They knew that was not face-to-face, but as close as you're going to get to God.

Deut. 4: "Take care, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb in the midst of the fire."

But who did see the form of God? The 75!

Exodus 33:11: "So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face as a man speaks to His friend."

He couldn't do it in glory because Moses would have been dead.

"So, He told them no man can see My face and live. You'll see My backside, but My face shall not be seen."

Since it is clear that all of the above examples of the face of God was not seen by humans, He was interacting with the term face-to-face, should be understood more in a sense of a direct interaction taking place without necessitating that the parties are involved or able to see each other's face and look into each other's eyes.

Because He said, 'God talked to you face-to-face.' They were looking up at the mountain. Could they see God? No! God was up on the mountain and He was looking down. Was that face-to-face? True! But did they see God? No! Did God see them? Yes! Then we have:

Num. 12:6-8: "Hear My words. If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD make Myself known to him in a vision. I speak to him in a dream. Not so with My servant Moses who is faithful in all My house. I speak with him face to face, even plainly, and not in dark sayings. And he sees the form of God. Why then are you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?"

If no one has seen the form of God at any time, how could that be the Father? That's why you have to start with the simple Scriptures that are easy to understand. I wrote on this page: You lost your argument! Let me read it:

If we look at the Hebrew words that are translated into the English phrase face-to-face, in the Scriptures that describe God having face-to-face interaction with humans, we will see that the meaning of the Hebrew words does not mean that the parties involved are able to look into each other's eyes.

With Moses it was. What did He do? Look in Moses' ear?

In fact the primary meaning of these words are just general expressions for direct communications. The Hebrew word translated face-to-face, and actually Exo. 33:11, Deut. 5:4; 34:10, Eze. 20:35 is 'paneh,' Strong's Concordance #6440. The Complete Word Study of the Old Testament by Warren Baker and Eugene Carpenter defines the word as a masculine, plural noun meaning a face.
Although the literal meaning of the face is possible, most of the time this word occurs in a figurative idiomatic expression.

Where are they drawing their authority? From the writings of a commentary, who do not want to admit that Moses and God did talk face-to-face, and they know nothing about flesh and bone going clear back to Adam and Eve.

We see the meaning of the Hebrew in these verses is consistent with face-to-face, being understood as an expression referring to direct communication without requiring the literal meaning we typically apply to this phrase in English today.

God Himself said, 'I speak to Moses face-to-face.'

Then it says there are two additional words, face-to-face, need to consider as well. They say that it is masculine, singular noun meaning mouth. Mouth-to-mouth. That's a phrase that John uses in 2-John, where he says, 'I don't want to write it in paper and pen.' The Greek is mouth-to-mouth. In other words I want to see your face and we'll talk. That's generally translated face-to-face.

Besides the literal meaning, this term is used as an instrument of speech and figuratively for speech itself.

Then they have Strong's and here is the meaning of Num. 14:14.

By extension it refers to being in the presence of another. Given that Num. 14:14 makes it clear that Israel only saw the cloud during the day and fire by night, in this face-to-face interaction with God.

Was there any face-to-face interaction with God because they saw the pillar of fire and the cloud? No! That was there to protect them. God gave them cloud covering.

  • If you're in the desert and it's hot, wouldn't you like to have a cloud covering? Yes!
  • If at night when it's pitch black out there and you don't anything, would you like to have a pillar of fire so you can see what's going on in the camp around you? Yes!

That's why that was no direct interfacing between the people and God.

I'll end it here because this requires quite a bit of reading so you understand what they have written. We're doing what Patton did with Rommel's book: He read his book and knew his tactics and beat him in the North African desert. So, we'll read their book and see where they're missing the point.

God Appearing to Humans:
There are numerous accounts in the Old Testament that describe God appearing to humans. Often the use of the word appeared in these accounts as interpreted to mean that we can assume that humans in these accounts actually saw the face of God.

Assume! So, this new doctrine is based a commentary and assumptions. You can't assume anything.

I can call my wife, talk to her on the phone. I can hear her voice in my ear, but unless I have the super-duper one where she can have her face up on the phone and I can have mine, I can't see her, but I can hear her. She can hear me.

A comment was made that in Exo. 34, after Moses was up there the second time that he absorbed some of the glory of God into his face. He had to put a veil over his face when he talked to the people. He took the veil off when he talked to God when the presence of God was there in the special tabernacle. Why would he take it off, if he didn't see God face-to-face, whether it be in vision or directly?

When Jacob wrestled with God, he said, 'I saw the face of God and lived.' Wrestled with Him. What form was Christ in at that time? Flesh and bone! Jacob must have been so strong, God said, 'I have to get out of this,' so He made Jacob lame.

Often the use of the word appears in these accounts is interpreted to mean that we can assume that the humans in these accounts actually saw the face of God.

Why can you assume that?

As a result, it is also assumed that all the accounts must be referring to the One Who became Jesus Christ, as it would not be possible for the God the Father to be spoken of if His face is seen by humans.

So, they lost their argument! You reason in a circle and pretty soon you go around your conclusion, and you have lost it. That's what they just did.

However, concluding that we can always assume that any reference to God appearing to human beings always means the One Who became Jesus Christ is being referred to and can result in significant Biblical contradictions.

No! If you understand the Word of God! I think it's interesting that all of this is coming right as we are beginning to study 2-Cor. with all the false christs and false apostles and satanic behavior going on in Corinth.

Scriptural References:

  • 1-Corinthians 11:17-20
  • John 6:46
  • John 5:36-38, 30, 37-39, 37, 40-47
  • Deuteronomy 18:15
  • Genesis 1:26
  • Deuteronomy 18:15-18
  • John 12:37-50
  • Deuteronomy 18:18-19
  • Isaiah 41:8-9, 22-29
  • Isaiah 42:1-8
  • Exodus 20:18-21
  • Exodus 24:1-3, 8-13
  • Luke 3:22
  • John 6:46
  • John 5:37

Scriptures referenced, not quoted:

  • Isaiah 50
  • Ezekiel 37
  • Luke 4
  • Exodus 21-23
  • Mark 9
  • Matthew 17
  • 2-Peter 1:16-18

Also referenced:

  • Book: Satan's Ten Most Believable Lies by David Breese
  • Sermon Series: Satan's Ten Most Believable Lies
  • Study Packs:
  • The Nature of God
  • Assaults Against the Church
  • Satan's Ten Most Believable Lies
    • Appendix A: Fourteen Rules For Bible Study(From The Holy Bible in Its Original Order, A Faithful Version)

Transcribed: 2-4-18
Reformatted/Corrected: bo—5/2020