Reports/Discussion #1
May 17, 2016

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FRED: Frans, tell us about what's going on in the Netherlands, how the brethren are and how you came to be associated with us, the different things you went through and so forth. Also, about the current things with the Muslims in Holland and Europe, as well.

FRANS PEETERS (Holland): First, I go back to where Fred was 1979; at that time there was a Dutch graduate from Ambassador College and he translated the first edition of A Harmony of the Gospels, 1976 edition. We did have another Harmony of the Gospels, which was used at Ambassador College. We were working close together and when he finished the book it was given out in the Dutch language and was spread to all the congregations.

We had four congregations at that time in Worldwide, and we wanted the English version and we contacted you by letter and we received your book A Harmony of the Gospels. We didn't know that something happened in 1979 with you and it was the Day of Atonement that you did leave. Then we lost contact.

We ourselves went through Worldwide, I was baptized in 1971 and my wife in 1972. In Worldwide in 1993 we had problems with all the changes in Worldwide, but at that time the regional director…said, 'Please don't go away, stay as long as you can.' In 1995 we were in Australia—we have a son and daughter—our son left for Australia and we were there for the Feast of Tabernacles and all the changes were open there, overtly open. They talked about it and there was a lot of not nice things. We came there the Day of Atonement and my wife and I were the only ones still fasting. So, we came back to the Netherlands and we left completely.

We did know that Rod Meredith had left Worldwide, but in Australia they had a bookstand with the World Ahead magazine mentioned. It stood there right outside where the Worldwide congregation was celebrating the Day of Atonement. It was free and it was from Rod Meredith. So, we contacted and there was one congregation in Belgium: Mr. Carrion and Reese Ellis. We contacted them and it was Pentecost and we were with Global. We became member in Global and 1998 the same thing happened, all kinds of things happened at headquarters and we did know about that. We quit it and we listened to the old Global messages and we left for Living.

It went along very well and in 2000 was our first Feast in Living, and then Mr. Apartian asked us if we could do something in the Dutch language. I said, 'Okay, we can do that, but we want to hear from…. We have a bank account, the chamber of commerce and the website.

At that time I was still fairly new, the website, in Living, because there was only one person outside Living—a member but not at headquarters—and he fixed four websites. We had close contact with him, and we translated all the  booklets from Living and 17 booklets we published in Dutch. That went very well.

At that time the region director and Living had trouble with the UK and lived in Ireland and two years later came over to the UK until 2006, then they brought a regional director from Australia and that didn't workout with us.

We had close contact with Doug Winnal and Rod King was from the first hour he came into our home it was…. Then they tried all kinds of things to change how we organized things, and to manipulate the money. Of course, we had the bank account and they wanted to take money from that for projects. We did not agree with the Board.

They asked us to please stay on the website until we have found a new person to handle that. We said we would do that, but it took longer and longer and nobody came over to do that, so we quit it.

In the meantime in 2002 we met Ray Clore, he was working at the Embassy for the United States and he spoke fluently French and English and came over to our place and we had…and he showed us Fred's Passover book. He said, 'Frans, I think you have to study this.' So, we asked for a Passover book from you and it opened our eyes; plus the background with what did happen in Worldwide, is explained there.

Now, we contacted you (Fred) for other books, and then in 2009 I asked you if you have a congregation in Europe somewhere. You told us England. Oh, that sounds good, 'it's just across the channel' you said to me. We searched all the UK and nothing to find. Then I remember that UK is also a part in Northern Ireland, and I knew in Ireland there was a church from your congregation.'

But that is far away from our side. You have to cross the channel and then the Irish Sea. In 2010, when we left Living, and we had the website in the meantime.

I wanted to do things from your website, from your books, translations, and we were working already on that. We had a website and we call it 'end-time gospel,' because that did very well in the Google search machine in the ranking. So, we got permission from you to publish on the website and we were starting with the booklets, and then last year, suddenly out of the blue sky, Roger and Manola came over. How he did it, I don't know, but he asked us to become an elder. So, we were working still harder.

We had five contacts we wanted to study about you, and two persons were already baptized, and all came over with us from Living, and one person I re-baptized because the ministers were with us—Ellis Reese and Ray Clore—and he was surprised that we don't learn anything with Living, he was really excited.

Then there was another guy who came also over but his health is not so well so he cannot attend Sabbath services as he wants to do. As it is possible he comes over, but at least he tries to come over once a month. We baptized him last year.

I brought with me a booklet in Dutch: Biblical Understanding Every Christian has to Know. It's the Beliefs Booklet.

FRED: Oh good! How do you pronounce the 'g'? (some back and forth in Dutch) Look at that!

FRANS: It's on the website, of course. To celebrate the Passover we do it in English because all the four people we are celebrating the Passover we follow your recording. But this complete booklet and you have a booklet for preparing for the Passover…it's still a work in progress.

FRED: Okay, very good! Thank you!

FRANS: Another booklet: Judge Righteous Judgment.

FRED: Thank you for all your work in doing that. That's something! Tell us a little bit about current conditions on the British Isles.

FRANS: The current condition is so that the Muslim has a great influence in the Dutch community. You are worrying about mainly in London. Rotterdam is one of the biggest harbors in the world. The government—the first and second chamber—installs the government in the Netherlands.

In the first chamber is a Muslim woman or man, but in the second chamber there are about five Muslims and one is a lady chairwoman and influence on the Muslims. But you know that a lot of fugitives (refugees) are coming over. This year was about 80,000, and now the local people are very upset because the strangers—most of them are Muslim—get a house, money for living, and the possibility when they are alone that the family reunion is possible for them. But it takes a little bit more. A lot of people in the Netherlands were waiting two or three years for a house, all the houses got to the Muslims or the new people coming in.

FRED: What about Geert Wilders?

FRANS: A strange person. He already is seven or eight years; he proclaim don't let Muslims in, they takeover. But Democrats and the Socialists parties… He's of the Party, but he's the only member of it. He is in the second chamber, but he's alone. He can invite people to come in, but he has no power, and when he was really in the government then he has no people to come in.

FRED: He's warned the Netherlands for how many years?

FRANS: For ten years!

Unnamed speaker: Was there not been legal proceedings against him?

FRANS: Yes, because they're still working on that for one thing, but there's a new party in Germany who are very close connected with Wilders, and they're working together.

ERIC STOTT (UK): How did I get to Fred? Quite a long story, I guess, but I tried to stay with Worldwide because I was told that it was a 'test of government,' and if I left I failed the test, so I tried to hunker down and live with it, but it just got to the stage where I just wanted to punch Olivia Carrion on the nose. I thought that's not a Christian attitude. I thought I better get out before it destroyed me.

I ended up going to United (Church of God). I think God led me there; I'm pretty certain that God led me there, because He had to teach me this lesson about government.

While I was with Worldwide, God opened my mind to understand the Pentecost resurrection. This is what led me to Fred.

I never bothered to bring that to the ministry in Worldwide because they were 'off the tree' anyway, so it was a pointless exercise. When I got to United I had almost forgotten about it until, obviously, Pentecost came and the message…. I went to the minister after services and I tried to enlighten him, which didn't go down very well.

The head of the United in England—Mr. Hawkins—tried to pacify me and asked me to write it all down, all of my understanding. He just tried to sweep it under the carpet. I even e-mailed it to a minister I was once close to, who is now living in America—Paul Suckling—and I thought very highly of Mr. Suckling. When I told him about the Pentecost resurrection, at first he seemed quite interested to learn. I sent him all my paper that I had written, and I never heard from him again.

Sadly, when he came to England—this was after I'd left United—and I downloaded one of his sermons he gave at the Feast, and his words were, 'I get sent loads of papers about different things, but we have a doctrinal committee in United so I just pass it to them. If they disagree with it then I don't have to worry about it.' I was just so disappointed. I thought: Mr. Suckling, God is going to hold you accountable, not the doctrinal committee!

FRED: Is he still with United?

ERIC: As far as I know, yes, I haven't had any contact with him.

I thought: God, You wanted me to be with United, so David Hulme's group was once affiliated, perhaps that's where You want me to be.

So, I began to attend with Davie Hulme's group. Again, the brethren was just such a breath of fresh air to get with brethren that still believe the same and, again, the ministers were preaching the Truth. But again, David Hulme preaches a Trumpets resurrection. So, I thought he's coming to England, so I got my paper and I'll go and see him preach and afterward I'll pass him over this understanding.

FRED: You're a nasty…

ERIC: But after hearing him preach, I knew it would be a waste of time, because he said, 'I won't tolerate anyone who doesn't tow the party line.' I thought: that's me! I disagree with you on the first resurrection. So, I realized it was just a waste of time. Then I thought: I've got to go with the only people who understand, and that's you.

I have to say that I didn't want to come because it meant being alone. I have been alone for the past eight years. The only time I get to be someone is for the Passover, which I take with your office manager David Obey. We have occasionally joined up, but we live quite a long way away. Fuel is excessively expensive in England. Most of the time I just spend it alone, and even Feasts I've been alone.

This is wonderful! To be here with you is just a tremendous blessing. I just wish more people would 'wake up and smell the coffee.'

FRED: Maybe that's the problem, in England it's tea!

ERIC: Good one!

FRED: We have a man, Kenneth White…

LYALL JOHNSTON (New Zealand): I've had communication with Kenneth, yes.

FRED: Give him the e-mail address, okay? We need to coordinate for Lyall Johnston, information straight from Britain. I'd like you to be with me when we talk about how to approach the things in Britain. Can't do it like America, it's impossible; especially when they find out that you're a cultist.

ERIC: I can sympathized with that.

FRED: So, we need to have strictly British presentation by Brits. That sound radical and novel, but that's what we need. They've never had it in the Church of God—right?

ERIC: With Worldwide I think there was, yes, but not anyone else.

FRED: We'll have to figure out what we can do. We need God to open the doors, and open our minds and have the approach that we need for them.

Now, Church at Home is really doing quite well here in America, and every once in a while we get… I got some mail from a man in Ontario. They've got a group of ten people who meet in his home and I don't even thing you know…

NORBERT BOHNERT (Canada): Could very well be, I'm finding that more and more in Eastern Canada.

FRED: So, you see that there's a lot more that can be done. We don't know how many people are doing what where, which is fine, because we don't need to control them; God needs to help them control themselves.

Pass it down to Andrew. He probably won't be quite as long as he was with me, because he told me the whole story from birth.

ANDREW MOSES (Malaysia): Good evening, everyone! I didn't go through the hardship that all of you have gone through, because I was being guided by my dad all the way through. So, where my dad is, I am there. That's what happened.

My dad got this Plain Truth magazine from one of his friends in 1967; he was about 17-years-old. He got the calling at that time and he was going all the way through and was baptized in Worldwide Church in 1972 by Mr. LeRoy Cole. Then my mom was baptized two years later in 1974.

Then it was all okay until 1978 when my dad becomes a deacon, in the Malaysian church the following has been withdrawn from him due to political reasons, and due to status. My dad was working in the Malaysian government as a laborer. Due to family situation—he had quite a big family with him—his own family, parents and in-laws—he had to take care of all of them, too. He needed a…from the government; it's free of charge. So, he don't have any choice, and he finishes…and got his first degree in…and he had to work for his education.

Due to family situation he was a laborer and we are a very poor family at that time. So, my dad's scholarship the following year and I don't know how he works by auditing somebody and drawing back; it doesn't make any sense, but I don't know the reason there, what happened.

He was in the Church and disfellowshipped three times in Worldwide Church, but he came back about six months later—very fast. He was a very dedicated man, he came back and then what he did in the early 1970s he ran to all his relatives, friends, and started to preach the Gospels. Then he tried to bring in the people one after another. It took him a few years to get all these people to be in the Worldwide Church.

It was going all the way through and it was a very powerful man, he could do miracles, casting out demons and healing people and all that. He used be a very powerful man, and he comes to 1978 when he said he should be withdrawn. He got into alcohol and in a very bad state for about three or four years. Then the situation he had to give up because of family and all that, and he stopped completely 100% until he passed on.

Then he was going through until 1992 when he found the watering down period that he had to quit Worldwide Church, and he was running up and down to the bookstores and all that to get information, and what was going on. He used to Bible study about five or six hours a day, so he was really troubled.

Then take me along, and I was about ten-years-old and he would take me along to all the brethren's houses, and this is what is wrong, something is going wrong and all that; this is not right, this is not right!

Most of them shut their door! He didn't give up! Then in 1993 he got through some of the members and they are out. They're out and the main picture started in 1994 when we all came out from the Church and some of the other brethren whom he brought to Worldwide and there's about 40-50 people. He bring them out and we joined Global Church of God.

Things are going, and when he got the book from Mr. Meredith, God Is about the leadership and he got carried away, and in 1993------about the government or something related to that from Mr. Fred Coulter.

He got that cassette and was jumping up and down: 'This is what I want! This is what I want!' He didn't get this kind of information from anywhere. He got that cassette and started from there to receive material and was on the mailing list and received materials and all that. He was getting into it deeper and deeper and deeper, but when he conveyed a message and the Truth to members, they refused. They said, 'You have changes every now and then, from Worldwide to Global, from Global to Living, and we cannot agree more to you.

There's always a man who have things. He tried his level best and he had one of his sermons recorded and sent to U.S. for evaluation. The outcome was that they stopped him from giving any messages. Someone said, 'Joseph, you're not in. So, you can't give anything.' He told my uncle who is a minister in Living Church, 'I'm leaving. Whether you are believing me or not, I'm leaving. I cannot bear anything.' So, he left 1998.

He left and we followed my dad all the way through and then he was in CBCG for many years. I had a very short time in Living Church, a very, very short time, because I followed my dad. My sisters stayed back; all of them stayed back. I'm the only son; I have six sisters; all of them in God's Church. They went back.

I did go back once in 2006 for a short period of five months where I have this Pentecost, Atonement, Trumpets and Feast of Tabernacles, and none of these festivals were said during the services. They never mentioned Pentecost in the Pentecost service. They never even used the word.

I have told many of you, did any of them use the word? I came back and told my dad, and my dad laughed at me. I had my Pentecost well, because I was listening to Mr. Fred's message. I've said, I've completed my Pentecost and then 'Why do you ask me to go back there?' He said, 'Because of your sisters, I think you need to be there.' I said, 'I don't want to be there.' Take your time, he said.

So, Trumpets come and the same situation. Then I told my dad, 'I'm leaving. I cannot stand anymore' because I'm not learning anything. We are going backward. We are already moving forward and we are going backward. So, I said, 'Dad, I cannot agree.' I want you to taste was is going around so you always will come back.

I was in my dad for about eight years: my mom, dad, my wife, all of us are keeping the Feast for seven years together. Then finally he made my sisters to change their mind and come back and all are in the CBCG.

Until this year we have been as a family, and two of my sisters in Living Church, and one with United. So, the rest of us are a small group, but we still know that the Truth stands. My dad used to say, 'Where two or three are gathered, God's presence is always there.'

But we feel that every Sabbath we are happy to listen to Mr. Fred Coulter's message, and we have everything complete. So, we don't have to think about any social gathering or whatever that doesn't make any sense for us. I keep my family with me together.

There's a man called Mr. Roy Assanti; he's supposed to come last year's Feast, but he couldn't make it due to family issues, and he brought forward and joined us for the Passover. He came with a bomb. He was going to ordain me as a local elder, so that was a big shock, not only me, but the whole Living Church. But the problem is, the Living Church are all my relatives, it's a bomb for them!

'How come CBCG is not a Church of God? It's in the world. How that somebody can come down and ordain somebody?'

The question is going all around because they're a big group and all of them brought by my dad and my dad's flocks. They are about 80 people and everybody is against, and everybody is calling—nobody called me—my sisters, 'How can this thing happen? We thought he was already out into the world'—and all that. I said, 'We're in CBCG, it's a Church of God, the true God.' So, I don't associate with them as much as my sisters associate with them. I don't feel it's fruitful for me to join and associate with them as you don't learn anything. You just have to have a physical life. I can have that in my family. Why I need to go and pick people and have a social life, which I don't feel is nice, because I left Living when I was 18-years-old, so that I feel that my dad is right all the time. So, I know that my dad is leading us to the right way.

I was in that age I already left and once more this I need to seek for social gathering and all that, I don't find it right. So, I thought he (Roy Assanti) was coming to give me position of a manager to open up an office. It's not been fulfilled. He came with another idea.
But the first person he met during his visit is my uncle—Living Church minister—and he was in a shocked state to meet somebody from CBCG to be there. It was a good thing, but he was the first person to know that I'm going to be ordained.

FRED: Finish up about how you registered this to the Church.

ANDREW: So, what happened, Mr. Roy told me last year that I need to get our church in Malaysia to be registered. There's a lot of registration companies in Malaysia, which I feel are third party from the government. That means that I have to have a yearly fee, I need to have audited, and all this kind of thing. It's a long procedure to go through.

I was telling him in and sending anything that they required; about 25-30 people and all that. It didn't work out. So, was just…about it and just waiting for him to come to me. The Living Church was registered by my dad, so he's the president of the church. They couldn't take his name off. So, my uncle tried his best to take his name off last year.

It was in my mind that my uncle did the registration just a few months back, so the first thing I did this after Mr. Roy came and then we had a split among my family after my dad was gone, my sisters are all scattered. He came and everything came back; all of us are back, and he did the job by talking individually to everyone. Everyone got back on the same moment, just a matter of a day, everything went through.

He came in and everything had been settled. I used to be like my dad, stern! What you can do and what you cannot do! Just follow the guideline. I don't want to have any compromising or whatever, or alteration, so my sisters feel that I'm hard on them. Like I'm questioning them and you shouldn't do this and all that; that's where the gap is. When Mr. Roy came, they came back and everything is okay.

Something tells me that I have to do the Church registration very soon, before I come for the conference. So, what I did is call my uncle to inquire. He said, 'No, you are living in a different state.' Of course, I'm living in Malaysia! There's only one rule. So, he says that we are living in a different state. I don't think so! I can help you in this. Go to the office and check yourself. I just wanted the guideline, the person you contacted, maybe it can be helpful. 'Oh, it's a bit difficult and you're just a small group, I don't think so you can do it.'

He told me that! I put on the phone and Googled the registration office. I was doing that for a couple of months, but I couldn't find it. That day the first click I got, the office was just 15 kilometers away from my office. I hung the phone and drive straight away to the office and got all the guidelines and got it registered in less than a week. In less than a week I got registered without any inquiry, without any interview. It registered…under the government, so I don't have to worry about any third party or anything.

It is a lifelong license that they have given me. I only paid about US$8.00 or so. I don't have to pay an annual fee or whatever, nothing. It's a one-time pay, and it's going to bring you right up to the end of life; it's a lifelong registration.

Then suddenly I get this certificate that it's been approved. So, the problem is that in Malaysia we have to have in Mali language to be the Church name. I'm very weak in Mali, so what name I want. We had this conversation with the lady and then we put it as (in English): Organization Greatest Church Biblical. Then I said, I don't want this to appear in whatever I do, I want the English name to appear. They said, 'Why don't you put a bracket and put Christian Biblical Church of God.' They approved! Even our logo—the CBCG logo—they approved!

Everything worked very well without any question, without any inquiry, and that thing is done and they sent me the certificates right away.

God works in that very much. I was in tears when things… because I wanted to bring the certificate along for conference to show Mr. Roy that everything went well at home. Now we can do everything officially in Malaysia. Whatever we do is all official.

So, the next thing I'm going to is go back and I'll open up your box. Everything is okay, everything is going smooth according to God's plan. But I don't have the hardship like all of you have gone through. My dad had gone through all of the hardship, and I am just full of my dad. I am here and we have about 20 people including children in Malaysia.

Soon after I was ordained, I received phone calls from Living Church that, 'Andrew, we're happy that you've been ordained.' One member called, 'I would like to serve you, can I join you.' Certainly! 'You tell me what needs to be done, I'll do it for you. You ask me to play the music, I'll play, if you want me to pray, I'll pray. I want to come and serve you.'

I said, 'You don't have to serve me, you have to serve God! But you have your family and your father and mother in Living Church, you can't just leave them and come and join me. You don't get excited, pray to God, leave it to God, and God will open your mind. I'll talk to you later.'

Then there are few other calls. It's kind of an emotional thing. Why they have to have that impression suddenly 'I'm going to serve you.' It didn't sound good. Let's go and pray about it. Then another couple of calls, and they said… My uncle's son called me, 'Send my special regards to Mr. Fred Coulter.' I said, 'He don't know you.'

All of a sudden things changed, and then people are calling and want to know what is happening and all that. When I went negative I don't really care, I'm already far off many years. Whatever they talk it doesn't really matter. The thing is they're getting into the world more and more, and…. They're kind of a fanatic towards us. You cannot even have a Christian Biblical booklet in their church. It can be booklet, Bible, nothing to bring it on to the church. It's forbidden!

So, this guy, my uncle's son, called me and said, 'I need A Harmony of the Gospel and 'I need a Bible' (Holy Bible in Its Original Order). I said, 'It's forbidden in Living Church.' No, no, it's for personal use! Then I said, 'Well, I think you should get your approval from the VIPs in the Church. Then if it's troubling you, then it's okay.' By giving books, it's nothing, you're going to learn, but don't think it's just for the sake you want to talk to me you want to get all this. A lot of people who are waiting for books and all that, they're really going all out. I said, 'Okay, when I'm back we'll see what I'm going to do.'

I need to sort out a lot of things and I need to open up the box and get all these letterheads and everything ready; by the time I get back I have a lot of things to do. So, I can say I have don't nothing, actually. I'm just taking care of my family and those who are coming together, that's it. So, we can recount and listen to Mr. Fred Coulter's messages. That's our lifestyle; that's how things are going.

(go to track 3)

NORBERT: Greetings from Canada! I can relate to Andrew quite well, of being an older teenager when I was introduced to the Worldwide Church of God by my parents, and had quite a bit of influence from them getting introduced to the Truth. I can relate quite well in growing up in the Church many ups and downs, of course, as you grow through the years and going through university and so forth. But I stuck to it, and basically with that I experienced many different things in Worldwide as they transpired through the many years, and saw the ups and the many downs that occurred. So, that also influenced my spiritual part of growth, too, because there were many ups and downs as I went through many years with what was going on in Worldwide at the time.

We were a family of six boys that my parents basically raised. I was the oldest of six boys and sort of looked at as being the example to my younger brothers, which I tried to exemplify as best I could over those many years. My father was quite proud of me, and my parents were also serving as deacon and deaconess for many years there. I got the aspect of what actual service to the brethren was through the actions of my parents. That sort of wore off on me. I was always very active in the youth groups and helping people, which I had much exposure to over the many years from my parents who served diligently for the church people.

In the many years that transpired and going and leaving home for a while and getting my education and degree, and going through things in life as a young man. Not ready to settle down, I had some tendencies that were a little bit wild at times, but I was always sticking close to the Truth and kept God very close at heart.

Our whole family did for the duration of Worldwide. But as things were deteriorating doctrinally I could see it, and my parents also could see it, things were not just not right. I could see that the degradation and subsequently I got very discouraged at times. There were some low points in my life that I thought there would be something else out there. But I stuck to it, and I stayed steadfast and followed my parents example all the way through.

When they left it was a little bit of a shock to me, to the system. They left Worldwide first and subsequently I was a little unsure. I knew the Truth wasn't being taught anymore, but I thought it was just a little bit of a hiccup, which many people in the organization thought at the same time, too. So, I sort of let it ride for a bit, and after that I could see that things were just successively getting worse and worse and worse, and once they started to play with the nature of God, I pulled myself right out.

I did it proper in a improper way, I just basically dropped the bombshell one day to my wife and said, 'I wouldn't be going to a Last Day of Unleavened Bread, and she was totally shocked at that! Subsequently, I withdrew myself from Worldwide at that time leaving my two young children and my wife to deal with it on their own. Subsequently, she also pulled the plug at Pentecost that same year.

In the meantime, my parents went to Global right away, and it took me about—after they had left—about eight to ten months to also start attending with Global, in which we attended for about four years. I think we spent three Feasts with Global. We could see that that was not going exactly where we wanted to, either.

There again, my parents withdrew themselves and through my entire life I sort of had a lot of respect for my parents, and they were quite strong Germans, very stubborn, so nobody was going to push them around too much. Subsequently, my wife and I withdrew ourselves, again, from Global at the time, basically not knowing what our next move was going to be, because we could see that that was starting to fall apart and the hierarchical end of it was starting to take over and so forth. We had some issues personally with the local minister at that time.

There again, we withdrew ourselves and started studying at home, and then my mum out of the blue gave me a tape to say, 'Listen to this.' It was by Fred. As soon as I listened to that tape, it was no sooner…. I said, 'That's it! That's it!' It just spurred something on. I said, 'That's it!'

We slowly made the move, and we started to follow on a weekly basis with our parents, again, and listen to Fred for some time; I'm not sure how long a period. As that grew over the years I continued to serve as best we could, then we had my brother sort of follow along. Out of the six boys, four of us were active in the Church scene; the other ones sort decided to go the other way and fall back into the traps of the world.

I tried to stay strong, and I think I encouraged my wife that we had found the answer to the Truth, that the relationship—the interpersonal relationship—with God the Father and Jesus Christ was all that we had to look to; we didn't have to look to any man, or look to any organization to get to where we should be striving to be.

That's what drove me, and as it turned out, at the time I got familiar with Wayne Stenhouse who was the elder in Eastern Canada. He visited the West quite a few times and before I knew it I was called upon, unsuspectingly, that I was asked to be an elder to serve the brethren in the Western Canada region. Wayne was responsible for the East. I respected Wayne very much; he taught me a lot in the short time that I really had with him, because unfortunately he get sick shortly thereafter.

I learned many things from Wayne. By experience it's amazing how you learn to deal with different things brethren-wise and so forth. There have been some issues that we've dealt with over the years, and most of it is not even doctrinal, but issues that people have amongst themselves as far as human carnal nature taking over.

We found out west that we were a very, very close-knit group out West. We didn't have any rifts, so we had a fairly small group, but a lot of that was family. As years went on I had more opportunity to travel and see the brethren a little bit more in my local area, and also on the west coast and found that the warmth and the atmosphere and spirit amongst the people was certainly different than I had ever experienced in any other church experience.

So, that was very gratifying, and, unfortunately, when Wayne passed on there was sort of a void left there for many of the people out east, and subsequently we had Duncan come onto the scene and try to fulfill that void that was there. That seemed to be okay and I had very little involvement with the brethren out east. The odd one would call me, but I didn't have much involvement with brethren out east.

As time went on and the situation with Duncan changed, then all of a sudden I was faced with a big country 3,000 miles long and there was no elder left on the east end of Canada, which occurred about three years ago. So, it's a big country to cover and I found that trying to work steadily and trying to earn an income, and at the same time trying to be a businessman, consultant and trying to look after the Church, it was quite difficult to get that all in. But I tried the best I could and I endeavored to try and meet the brethren's needs as best I could.

That's what we continue to do and serve the brethren as best we can, and we're possibly trying to find somebody who can fill that void in the eastern end of Canada, to help with the servant and eldership. We're trying to find somebody who would be suitable for that role just to help along. The brethren definitely feel a void if they haven't got somebody to go to and sort of hold them together and shepherd them.

That's one thing I've really realized in the last year and a half. As much as a lot of people are not able to meet together, there are groups out there, as Fred said, that are meeting together that I'm not even aware of. I'm going to be endeavoring to try to get to see some of these groups and see if there isn't some fruit there that we could work with and possibly get an elder in place. I haven't even spoken to Fred about this, but see if there a candidate out there that we could work with and somebody could sort of take the lead and get another elder in the area to look out for those people out east.

There is a void there, and there are some difficulties that I've had to deal with, some difficult situations, but I've tried my best with the guidance with a lot of the other elders, which has been very, very much of a plus, as well, that we have gotten together and counseled amongst other elders to deal with different situations. I found that so gratifying that it was a real help to the situations that was there. It was an ongoing thing, and being a servant and dealing and shepherding the flock, that's a responsibility that I really feel that I've been called to do, and I'm trying to do the best I can with the limitations I have.

I'm unfortunately still human and carnal and I have some tendencies sometimes maybe to not show the true light as it is, but that's when I go back on my knees and say, 'God, help me through this,' and it's been relatively working out well. The brethren seem to receive things quite well, and overall I think we're a fairly cohesive group. I don't have any issues of disgruntlement, and we are seeing now in trend in Canada that there is some disgruntlement in the other groups, which is showing up and we're starting to get many inquiries from the other groups.

Another trend that we're noticing is that we're starting to get some younger people that are coming from the other groups. But the younger people are starting to come and ask questions. We actually got some good young people coming up in some very, very solid young people. That's a very positive sign.

As far as the Canadian situation, the office is running very smoothly. We made some transitions with government requirement as far as charity organizations and non-profit organizations; we've got that all resolved and everything seems to be working well.

But unfortunately our government has taken a 360 degree swing, and we're very socialistic with a very suave younger prime minister—Mr. Trudeau—and is setting a tone for a very interesting couple of years. He's got money to spare, and is spending money needlessly for a lot of things, and he is pushing a few items that could be legalized here very quickly such as legal marijuana use in the country. They're playing with that. They've already played with the gender-neutral bathrooms and washrooms. Of course, accepting gay marriage and so forth.

They're pushing the gender-neutral bathrooms at elementary age, already that's being—not enforced—scrutinized in some areas and has already taken effect, which is a real, real intrepidation to think that we've come that far, that kids are being exposed that young to possible deterioration of even knowing who they actually are, whether female or male.

Interestingly enough, in the House of Commons, the government structure of Canada, of 114 members, 68 are Muslims, that are serving in the House of Commons. There is rumor that Trudeau actually has some Muslim advisors and he actually may be Muslim, but that has not been verified.

So, Canada is in a state that is going to be a very, very trying four years after being a conservative government for so many years, that was being accused of not doing anything progressive to the young people. Basically, this socialistic movement has occurred strictly because of young people voting for Trudeau to be in power.

His father was not well liked, and he's, of course, overturned the apple cart that we've been so conservative, it's going to be very interesting to see how the people react in about two or three years after seeing what occurs.

Other than that, I can't report anything further.

LYALL: I've just been sitting back here and listening to each one of you. I suppose I can start with my journey. I have a lot in common with Groucho Marx, I was born at a very early age. I was also born with a missing dimension that I'm trying to solve that one. I always struggled as a kid. I go onto school and I'd start out fresh in the beginning of the year, but I'd seem to lose it, lose track and still do.

Very interesting from the background. My great-grandfather on my father's size was Danish. He was a Danish officer signed off in  the Port of Bluff, which is at the very southern tip of the south island of New Zealand. There's a little island below that called Stewart Island, which is basically reserved for a lot of the bird life and so forth in New Zealand.

As I pointed out, when I first came to see Fred, the first time I came up to an elder's conference, if you draw a line in latitude around the globe, the only place further south apart from the South Pole is the southern tip of South America. So, I don't know that we have any people right down in that region, so as I've always maintained that when God called me He had to turn the barrel over, He couldn't look inside to find me, He had to turn the barrel over and decided which was the slugs and the worms and which was me.

I was affected somewhat by the war years; I was quite young. I still remember the nightmares I had, and probably for our friends from Holland you probably have memories of that. But I used to have nightmares of Germans invading. My dad served in the air force, he was never sent overseas and we traveled around the country following him.

Later I came to learn that my grandfather and grandmother—she was Scottish and he was the son of a Dane—but they were very loyalists. My grandmother, I can still remember hearing her saying, 'I'm not going to die until there is an heir to the British throne.' Charles was born and she said,  'I've seen all I want to see' and she died three weeks later.

Then when my mother died, I came across these books with the name Agnes Johnson on them. My great-grandfather's name, by the way, was Johansson. So, he anglicized his name when he took out his New Zealand citizenship. But all these books going back to the origins of the British nation—probably somewhat British Israelism, but at the same time I didn't know that was going on, that they had access to this knowledge. My father also had those books and read them.

We were basically Methodists, but switched to the Presbyterian Church, but I always had questions in the church area that no one could answer. I went to a couple of evangelists that visited our hometown once; I asked them, 'Can you tell me the difference between justification, sanctification and glorification?' They couldn't. Yet, the next time this Christian newspaper came out, a young man—a businessman—gives his heart to the Lord. After visiting with these men afterward, very disgruntled—not disgruntled, but couldn't get answers from the church either—not happy with that, always searching.

At age 13 my brother and I went to boarding school; I think that was good because it helped us to become independent. We had to do compulsory military training, that was also a good part, I think for myself, as far as training and so forth was concerned.

I had left high school after three years because my family was needing somebody to fill the role in the family business, which was a retail butchery. So, I did that for ten years, then in high school, on the Ides of March of 1953 I met this young lady who was 14-years-old, and seven years, almost, later we were married. We lived apart but we were married in 1960. We had one child by the time I received the first Plain Truth magazine. It had to be a 1961 Plain Truth because it was 1962 I remember when I first found out about the Sabbath. That was to me a bomb. It just opened to me the whole gamut; that was the one truth that I needed to know to sort of start me on the track of finding out what God's plan was.

I started immediately to keep the Sabbath Day. I don't think I kept the Passover, but it had to have been the Passover when I was called, when I think back. We don't see these things until later.

But I know I kept the Holy Days and I wouldn't go to work on those days; being the boss I was able to leave that to the men who were working for us. After about two or three months, had to be about the middle of 1962, one of the Plain Truths had an article by Rod Meredith about Ambassador College. If you come from the United States, apply to Pasadena; if you come from commonwealth countries, apply to Bricketwood.

Immediately, I said to my wife, 'How would you like to go to England?' She said yes because overseas experience the thing for young marrieds. The reasons she married me—one of the reasons—was that she had moved around a lot as a child and she saw in me as stability, somebody who basically would live in the same place all our lives. Two and half years later we were off to England.

I was communicating with Earnest Martin, the college registrar at that time. I didn't get the application finished in 1962. I had difficulty just writing my diary or history, and sent that across, couldn't be accepted being married and having family, it had to have Herbert Armstrong's approval.

In the meantime that I didn't know that anyone going to Ambassador College from Australia or New Zealand had to be visited by a minister. I never saw one. I think we came too far away from Australia at the time. I didn't know so I was sending my tithes to Australia. I think it came to the place where I had to make a decision, because I hadn't heard from Bricketwood as to whether I had been accepted or not, so we went ahead and sold our house, booked our passage to England and then I'm pretty sure that's the way it was, and then we got this letter from Earnest Martin saying that I had been accepted as a student of Ambassador College. That ended up as 1963 was my first year.

My wife was five months pregnant on the journey to England and she dry-wretched every day for about two hours for the five weeks at sea. We thought that we were going to lose our son Paul as a result of this, and he was born in Dec. 1963—college had started in September.

College was rough. It came to the end of the graduation year and sitting in class Charles Hunting was looking around and said, 'Lyall, I don't know what we're going to do with you.' Sitting in counsel with Ron Dart, he said, 'Lyall, I can't see you sitting down counseling people for baptism.' So, I had no illusions of what was going to happen. When I graduated, it was the class of 1967, I was employed in the mailing office, working with John Jewel, the manager, and I was assisting John.

Then I had been sent back to New Zealand as the Church had just been established. Shortly after the New Zealand office was opened we did the Reader's Digest ad, and we just had this flood of responses from India and Malaysia. I can't remember what we did with those. So, hopefully we'll have some more Reader's Digest ads.

Wayne Cole decided that we would open an office in New Zealand and I was basically taken care of the rest of the operations in the office apart from the business and visiting people on the weekends. I actually got to serve with every congregation in the country, and it's just so sad that they basically just faded away to nothing, except that those who have still remained with a Church of God.

After ten years following graduation from AC, they were calling back people who had graduated from Bricketwood to Pasadena to recycle us. That was a thought, and it was then that I really understood why—I think it was Jack Elliot's wife who said when they came for one of the Feasts in the early 70s, 'The sermons down here are incredible.' I said, 'You're in Pasadena, you hear some of the top speakers. You've got all these evangelists speaking there.' She said, 'Yeah, but the sermons here are wonderful.' I didn't really understand what she was talking about until we went to Pasadena in 1977-78 for a sabbatical.

One of the popular speakers—Garner Ted Armstrong—you couldn't get a seat unless you were there a couple of hours before hand. The other ministers—the lesser ministers—you could go anytime of the day, and the auditorium was empty. It was then that I began to understand some of the liberalism that was taking place in the Church, but it still didn't fully click.

But the way God's Spirit works with us, you just not comfortable in a situation. From there we were re-assigned to Wheeling, West Virginia congregation, which we served for about three years. Then we had musical chairs—several ministers moved—and we were called to New Zealand, and we came back to the same congregation, which was Wellington and I was pastoring five churches, two on the south island, and three on the north island. I was away from home every weekend, and that doesn't help family situations. Although by that time we had left our daughter in Pasadena, she was in college. Our son came back with us from the states, but he had a chancellor's scholarship and within in about ten months he was back at Ambassador College.

None of the children have followed through. Our son was the only one who said, 'If Christ would return today I would be the first one to fall flat on my face in the dirt.' Here's hoping.

We were transferred to Christ Church about April 1990, and at that stage Colin Sutcliff there had hooked up with Gerald Flurry and Colin had been moved out to Auckland, because they were aware of what was going on Raymond McNair was the regional director at that time. Colin continued to pastor the Church secretly from Auckland, though I was there trying to help. It was very difficult and not long after I just stood up one day and in the sermon I said, 'You know, the attitude of the Philadelphia church is that we are the weak and despised of the world, and showing the opposite of what Philadelphia Church of God was, which they were saying themselves to be. I had one of the deacons come up and try and tell me that I was wrong, that 'we [PCoG] are it.'

Anyway, Colin took away one-third of the congregation, which I always think was an interesting number.

There were all these changes taking place, and I did not recognize them at the time. I was struggling trying to keep people and bring them to the knowledge and understanding, and trying to pull them back from the Flurry influence, which Colin was a part of.

Then we were transferred at the end of 1994 to where we are living now, which was a one, two , three church area. What we had there was a local elder who was trying take over the congregation, and he was working with Rod Matthews who was the regional director in Australia. Again, we had this problem where he and a pastor's son—who was basically pentecostal—who was trying to take the church into pentecostal areas.

We were struggling with that and these changes were taking place. I was going to a conference in Sydney, Australia, and again the Spirit was in me and it was just uncomfortable. I still didn't see what was going on because I was trying to work with the brethren. I'd had somewhat of that attitude that I see was correct to a point where I saw David's attitude toward Saul and that's how I treated it.

So, you let a lot of water pass under the bridge, because God appointed this man so therefore he's got to be something in this. At the same time I think that probably helped me to stay with the Church even though you could see that there things taking place you didn't fully comprehend. I was so busy doing on the one hand, not seeing what's going on in the other.

Then it came down to 1997, for a couple of three years going across to the elder's conferences in Australia, that atmosphere, I didn't feel like I was a part of it, but felt like I was a stranger. I didn't understand it; some of the attitudes were pretty sour at those conferences.

Then, of course, I was terminated from Worldwide Church of God, which was a blessing from God, really, when you get right down to it. Not knowing what was going on, no income, what do you do? I knew Rod Meredith, I knew David Hulme, and the other leaders that were taking people out. There's no way that I could, whatever there was that was in me, there was nothing that would allow me to go with any of those groups. So, I went out and did some selling on the streets.

Motivation programs, which I hated and marketing. Security service that my son-in-law said, 'would you like to do some work for me on the side for a finance company' and I'm still working there after 18 years. I started doing that for him, and he was manager of one of the departments.

I said, 'Yes, sure.' I'm still there and had a lot of favor from them. When we please God, He can move people to please us and to bless us. And that's what's happened. I learned from Charles Hunting that when you're walking around the college campus and you see a piece of paper, you bend down and pick it up.

Three men who influenced me in my college life in England: Dr. Benjamin Ray—he used to do the Spanish broadcast. The one sermon I remember from the Feast in 1963 was him talking about humility and fasting. That really made a point.

The other one was Earnest Martin. He came back after he had done his doctorate, and we sat there through his first session of the canonization of the Bible and the Hebrew calendar. Also, I think it was Ron Dart who was doing the Epistles of Paul. That was the year for me that just broke the Bible open. It was quite incredible and began to see things in a totally new light.

The other was a sermon by the man who used to sit behind the controls for Mr. Armstrong and the radio broadcast, Norman Smith. The Day of Atonement had to be about 1971. He gave his sermon based on Rom. 8 and the battle between vanity and humility. That made a big impact and I preached a sermon on that in every congregation I went to. I would repeat that message because it was such a crucial message. God accepts us if we're humble, but if we're proud…

So, that was 1997 I was terminated, praise God! I had been praying from that time… Let me jump back to when I was 17 or 18. I can remember that my parents built a home on the homestead that belonged to my grandfather; he was a butcher before me and I sort of carried on that business. I can remember standing out there and I remembered that David just crying out asking God to reveal Himself to him. When you look back—you don't necessarily think of the things at the time—it was about seven years later that I picked up the Plain Truth and found out about Ambassador College and went.

I don't think I finished the story, but I was supposed to be checked out by the Australian ministers before hand, but I learned later from one of the men in Pasadena that I slipped through the net. I think that if I had visited with them I never would have got to Ambassador College.

So, in 1997 I was terminated. I continued for a little while, and there was a minister by the name of John Maclean, the current regional director of Australia. The sermon on that day was on the Myers/Briggs Inventory and that was my last day for there for the Sabbath. So, I could not join with any of the other groups. I had a friend who I'd met as a 12-year-old and he was a draftsman and he kept badgering me. He said, 'Lyall, we've got to start meeting together.' I said, 'Not until I know that God wants me back in the ministry.'

When I look back on that, I spent seven years in the wilderness, not knowing where I was or where I was at or what I was going to do. Ray kept badgering me, and eventually when that happened we started to get together. We started meeting on the Sabbath and just go over material, the two of us. Occasionally people would join us. Then the CBCG group somehow contacted us. I don't remember exactly how, and they came down and might have had a couple of others with them.

We met together and from that point of time I learned about Fred and CBCG. To me it was instant! You know the Scripture which says, 'My sheep know My voice'? That's exactly what it was for me. When God speaks to us, we know His voice! That's exactly what I found in listening to the sermons and the messages that Fred had been giving.

The only thing I remember about Fred was that I was in the auditorium the day that he was disfellowshipped originally. I think it was the ministerial conference when he first disfellowshipped you. And I think was Earnest Martin was disfellowshipped about the same time. That was it. I knew that Fred had written A Harmony of the Gospels, but I didn't have a copy of that until later.
With that we started associating with the  CBCG group, which was about an hour away from where we lived. Then I was asked if I could act as an elder for the Church. The church in New Zealand meets in little groups; we're quite scattered. The south island people are just not able to afford to come up to the Feast. We have a new office manager: John and Olga. He's half Lebanese and Dutch, and she's Dutch. Wonderful couple, the brethren love them, and they are acting as the oil on troubled waters. It's beautiful to see.

As I mentioned to Fred, how they came on, my friend Ray gave them a little business card—CBCG card—and they just took off, stuck into their Bibles, listened to Fred's messages and trying to catch up. But as they said recently, 'Look, we're finding we're not having to mark our Bibles so much now.' No motivation needed. They were just self-motivated.

When I do recordings; one week a month I do it at their home. They have a lot of grandchildren and pretty heavily involved with family. Then other times John will come down because the place I work for allows me to use—on a Saturday—one of the little interview rooms. It's beautiful, because it's basically sound-proof, so I can just sit down there and record two or three programs.

This struggle, just to make the change from talking to a captive audience—like we have in the Church in the sense that people want to hear what you've got to say—in speaking to people that are brand new and you can't see. That's a mental thing that has to take place. I think I've accomplished that, but what I need to accomplish now is to get the place where we've got to have a 'formula'—like Fred has been mentioning. We've got to ask questions and then lead the people along and then give them the Biblical example.

Actually some of things that Fred just mentioned recently were very helpful, particularly in this whole matter. It's bothered me. How do I deal with talking about Ephraim and Manasseh. I think I hit that too hard, and Fred's point on that was very good. So, I've been thinking about how I need to restructure that and sort of basically cut that without hitting them with hard stuff right from the beginning, turning them off.

So, that's something that I look forward to at this conference and getting down to that.

Let me just mention one other thing. On Sunday when I left, I met one of the men whose name Fred sent to me, Brent. He's a man of probably about 60; he's been a policeman, a detective. He had a lot of involvement with youths. He just came across us, and it was like we've known each other for a long time. He had about an hour to spare, so we just exchanged our basic backgrounds and so forth.

He's got some very good ideas and he wants to keep in contact, so it looks to me as though God is calling him. Of course, we've said that many times about people we've met and then they just fade away. Hadn't heard from him for a number of weeks, but I contacted him and I said I would be in Auckland on Sunday. He said, 'I'll be there.' And he was. I believe that this man could have potential for helping us, particularly, as you've mentioned, the youth work. He has particular ideas about the youth. He says the youth are not just disinterested, they're wanting to hear these things, we just have to be able to know how to present that material to them. That was a good point.

FRED: Write this down; I just thought of this: You can't give a 12-year-old a Bible and say, 'Here.' But we can give them something with Proverbs, which will help, because 12-year-olds can understand Proverbs. I think we need to design a book—so, if he's got some ideas, and I'm sure that others will, too—Bible Essentials for Youth. Just take sections of the Bible and put that in.

Today they have no training to really search. So, you've got to have it not difficult, not detailed, but you lead them into things that are essential for their lives from the Scriptures. So, it won't be a youth Bible, but it will be Bible Essentials for Youth. That's been on my mind here recently, so I'll let you percolate on that.

LYALL: He's been involved on a national basis with youths.

Interesting, the Feast last year in Australia we had people who had friends in the other groups: Ron Dart's groups and other groups. They would come back and they were saying to me that they weren't being fed out there, which I thought was an interesting comment. We know it anyway, but it was nice to hear it.

FRED: You promised a summary in two minutes!

ROY ASSANTI (Australia): I guess going back, I was absolutely disgusted with and disoriented when this stupidity started to come into the Church. I was just absolute garbage. I was giving sermonettes and the one Holy Day—I think it was the first day of Unleavened Bread—I gave a message on God Loves a Cheerful Giver. I thought what a good idea. We had this fantastic Welshman who could sin, and I got him to sing that to lead songs and do that hymn. In that hymn, it says that three times in the year to appear before God. It talks about the Feast days, and I thought that's going to offend the minister.

This minister sat there and so 'cheezed off'; he wouldn't even look at me. He had given me a letter to basically go over, and in it was a letter from the church to the local area inviting them all to come over and be there. So, I had edited this letter and said, 'Here's the letter…' He's sitting down with his bag open not making eye-contact with me. You could see that he was put off by the sermonette that I gave about God loves a cheerful giver, and this hymn that I organized.

As he was looking away, I said, 'Do you want the letter,' and he was not looking so I just flicked it. It sailed around went into his bag, and I walked off. I thought, that's it! I've had enough!

Manola and I wandered a little bit, and then someone said, 'You listen to this.' He gave us a tape, and I agree with so much Lyall, the way he put it, 'My sheep know My voice.' You know, you wander through a wilderness of garbage and suddenly, 'I know that voice!' Bottom line it's where Christ is working! Where the Truth is! You see the fullness and say, 'Yes! That's what I want!' That's how, more or less, how we came in contact.

God puts people together perhaps in a certain way. Manola and I sort of like 'rescuers' where there is trouble we go in. I don't know why or how. I did one of these conferences—business seminars—and when I put people together in conflicting situations and it's late at night and they put the trouble in there, and sure enough, who goes in there? Roy! A friend of mine who is a facilitator said, 'Why did you do it? Why did you go amongst those nuts?' I said, 'Well, they needed help!'

I had to help; they would have gone somewhere else. So, I guess one of the things that I just naturally find myself doing, when I see a problem I move toward to unravel, to help, to sort. I guess it's because I've had a pretty tough dad. He had gone through nine years of military and ruled! When I first found out about the Church it felt as if I was just held together in literal chains of iron.

When this minister said, 'Did you know that there's a church behind this magazine?' The Worldwide Church of God! Then the penny dropped; this will never happen. But when God is calling you don't have a choice. You can't buy it; you can't get it. But you can't stop being drawn, and I guess that's the thing, as I look inward about me.

There was a time about the end of 2003, and there was a problem in Australia. I mean this control. If anybody lifted their head up a little bit too high, POW! you got it! And I guess I tried to make that known to Fred. I wrote to him. One time I phoned.

Fred listened and he said, 'Oh, I know! There's someone you need to contact in Australia, his name is Roy Assanti.' I said, 'Fred, that's me!' So, basically I said, 'Look, I gave some advice—which I won't go into—and Fred decided right to the extreme, and then the problem came out. Since then I had actually been holding my tithes and offerings aside, and said no, I can't give.

What happened was that Fred asked me to start over again and put the funds into another entity to run the business of the Church and we continued for some ten years. All I said was I'm only a helper, that it. I'm here to help.

It was increasingly obvious that we needed an elder in Australia. We had an elder but there were some problems there and we didn't have an elder then. We needed someone and I suggested a few people to Fred and Fred said no, not yet.

To back drop of this is that I had been running a motel business and it virtually was like a house-arrest for me from the start. It's very difficult. Imagine obeying God and running a seven day business. It was kind of 50/50 with my brother's family. What do we do? Oh, you can't be baptized. Well, I counseled and I was baptized before being thrown into the situation. What do you do?

That's where it really comes to the fore that you have to 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.' We had situations that 'Is this an ox in a ditch'? What's happening? But we worked out that home was home and work was work. On the Sabbath we stayed home; the Holy Days we stayed home or went to Church and so on. But we kept the two totally separate. It was difficult!

To say that you should not be baptized until you keep the Sabbath completely or you don't work, I probably would have been baptized never if that would have been the case. But God gives each one of us the trial that is needed to develop us. So, I guess I find myself these days whereas motivation isn't necessarily Lyall's the best thing for me, the desire to break free of those constraints that are put on you. I have been constrained, continually, and that's the way my mind thinks: break free, don't be held captive, keep going.

What I speak about always ends up somewhere to move forward; don't get bogged down, keep fighting, keep going, never stop. That's what sort of drives me. The other thing is that both Manola and I are quite the same. I've been told we're rescuers. If there's problem we want to help.

That's what it is about me, if I see a problem I have to go there and assist. I don't know why; it's part of me, part of the way of my psyche, the way I've been brought up being constrained. I want to break free! I can't stand you being hurt. I've got to go in there and help.

I guess, like last year I saw a need, and it's a conscience thing. You don't want to come out and say, 'I'm going to do this…' No, it's not about you; it's a fire, a desire to assist, to help, to…. That's what drive me. I've known about So. Africa, so we went there. Dave Obey told us about the Peeters over in the Netherlands, and he said, 'Here's the details.' I rang and lo and behold I was told, 'You stay two days.' Had I not stayed the other day, probably it wouldn't have come to mind to ordain Franz. But I was in counsel with Fred and I actually got to talk to Fred in detail about the situation as I became aware of it.

Actually what happened, this just a little bit of a sidebar: Franz didn't have an idea what was going to happen. But we went out in the backyard and I said, 'Come here, let's have a look at your yard, it's lovely.' This is planted here and there. Who could we have to serve as elder here? I don't know! I said, 'What about you?' His draw dropped.

Where there's a need, a problem. Then we had in Croatia; Fred had been talking to them for six months or a year. I was communicating with them for two years after that and was telling them about the Holy Days. Oh, that's Jewish! No, it's not Jewish, these are God's days. I made him understand, and he had done three theological courses about ten years study. That's a lot crammed in there, so the final thing after telling him and going through counting the cost, what's involved and there's no turning back, and do you understand if God's Spirit is given to you, there's no turning back, none at all?

At the end I told him about the Comforter and that it will bring the knowledge of all these things to you. I'm not going always be here, but you need to continually seek God and He will guide you by His Spirit. That's the only thing I can tell you. No one is going to be there watching every thing you do and think. God's Spirit is there and don't be deceived, for 'God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows he shall reap.' You can't hide your mind from God.

That's what I left him with. But there was another situation and the most recent one was the Malaysian situation. I hadn't gone there, but decided to go there and my mother-in-law had to have a heart valve replacement. It was a big deal! We didn't know when she was going to go to hospital, but it was right at the Feast, so that was it. So, the only way we could redeem our tickets was to go earlier before the next Feast, so that was this past Passover period.

As soon as I went there, a young man picked me up and straight over to meet the uncle. Then I said to Andrew, 'How do you say uncle in Malaysian?' I must have gotten it right, I had been practicing in my head. He was surprised! We sat in a quaint little Kentucky Fried Chicken place; it was nice and quiet.

FRED: Kentucky Fried Chicken!!!

ROY: In Malaysia they have healthy Kentucky Fried Chicken! It was interesting meeting Andrew, because I could tell that he was a little bit embarrassed, he [Uncle Rajan] wants to meet in a restaurant not at home. So, that was fine. We met at a restaurant and we talked.

As Andrew left, I started to ask Uncle Rajan, before considering ordaining Andrew I need to know and I need to talk to everybody. Tell me! He said, 'Have you fasted about this? Have you prayed about it?' I said that he's been a long time in coming. I've been counseling and thinking about it for a while. What about it? Does he have the character? He said, 'He's been in the Church all his life. All the time. Enthusiastically, no problem!' We got along because I talked to him about fellow living ministers—not that there are dead ones…

FRED: There are some!

ROY: Okay, there are some but they aren't speaking. Things that we had in common. People that I knew, and some that had similar connections, and by the time we finished speaking we developed a bond. He looked at me, and he said, 'You come to my home. Can you come to my home?' The ice was broken and I said, 'Andrew, do we have to go anywhere.' No, No! He and I and Uncle Rajan and I sat down and spoke a the table while Andrew spoke to Auntie a little bit away, and we talked a little bit more about things in common.

Afterward when it was time to go I just stood up and he looked at me and put his arms out, 'You know, you can tell God's Spirit, there's that connection between us. He wanted us to go because the Church was having Passover and first Holy Day at a camp together. 'You come Sunday morning and meet some of the brethren.' Consequently, as time passed, a few days later when Andrew phoned about something else, I said, 'I've got three people I've got to talk to and I won't be able to make it Sunday morning.'

So, it had changed. There's another thing I also said to him, 'I will lay hands on Andrew and I will pray over him, but if you like, you can also. It's your brother's son. You can also lay hand, or maybe not.' He went back a little bit. 'It's your brother's son; it's your blood!' I didn't pursue it.

So, we made that connection, we embraced and had that mutual understanding that God's Spirit was there. Yet, I guess the higher up situation was jarring the signal a little bit and couldn't quite connect and make a continual connection.

Anyway, it's really interesting to see that some of the brethren over there are coming interested in talking to you, Andrew. We'll continue to talk about that and how to handle it and so on.

Right now, very briefly, with regard to the church, we're looking at slowly developing an Internet site where the focus is going to be, as per discussions with Fred, is to give exposure to different speakers around the world, like we say international. So, we have the idea and will be discussing with Fred more about different country pages and so on where there's a speaker in that country. That's to just give another flavor to the Church, but we want to have the same branding and the connections to the main site.

There's so much on the main site, so much there, the best way to do is to just connect, connect, connect. Do the simple work of giving exposure to other speakers and men around on this site. We've got books and everything.

One of the projects that I really like and speaking briefly with Fred and we're thinking about it more and more, is the possibility of having a correspondence course along the lines of what we had before, but one that we could link all the church literature, the Church at Home material so that it's linked around this course.

If they do that then they can order this and that series, and so on. We have a little warehouse that we're renting for $100 a week, and that will be warehouse and office, and organize and keep. I believe that building it around a course where if you ask a question like: The reward of the saved is? A, B, C, D. After having gone through the Scriptures and so on, the person themselves…. Then giving the right answer. Or: What happens after death? You sleep and at the right time you're resurrected and so on.

So, when somebody says that that is correct, that is the truth, it is the premise of 'edu,' to draw forth, it comes out of the person. That is the truth. If the Catholic Churches teaches that you go to heaven or to hell, that's wrong, the Bible is right. It's a good way to bring people out to acknowledge the Truth. That's just a little project that I'll be talking more to Fred about. He'll be browbeating me, no doubt!

The other thing I might make mention of, I really have a concern for scattered brethren. There are a lot of scattered brethren. I had a technical man whom we lost, that we could join together via Skype various groups. What were doing is analyzing the mailing list in Australia and looking at the people who are in particular areas and trying to group them together and communicate with them: Do you mind if we put you in touch with a group, and a group leader to try and get them to at least be able to meet and not to be separate?

When you're separate, it is difficult. When you meet physically with someone—'this is someone like me'—it's just something that I've experienced in talking to people. One really outstanding example is Pete Sharpe in Midlands, UK. As soon as I knocked on the door, Pete wanted to buy me dinner, brought me over to his dad to anoint him and pray over him. His mother and father were just about in tears over the prayer.

Just the impact of us going out and having that community if it's possible, either by the Internet or meeting. I've been told to go and meet. How far can you go in Australia? It's just like Canada! That's something that needs to be looked at.

FRED: It's very interesting! 1-Timoth 6:3: "If anyone teaches any different doctrine, and does not adhere to sound words, even those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the doctrine that is according to Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing. Rather, he has a morbid attraction to questions and disputes over words, from which come envy, arguments, blasphemy, wicked suspicions, vain reasonings of men who have been corrupted in their minds and are destitute of the Truth—men who believe that gain is Godliness. From such withdraw yourself" (vs 3-5).

You look back and that's what's been happening to the Church all these years. Everybody who truly wants to serve God has been forced to leave, to leave, to leave!

That's where we are right now with the Church in all our experiences. It gets back to another thing that Jesus said, 'I know My sheep, and they follow Me.' That's why it's important that we teaching nothing but the words of God, regardless of where we are, what country we are in, it will connect because God's Sprit will make it connect.

So, just listening to everybody's story here, that's what has come to mind.

(go to track 4)
Transcribed: bo—6-22-16
Corrected: 6/28/16